Comments on: My fruitless efforts to change national education http://www.grenoblelife.com/my-fruitless-efforts-to-change-national-education/ The English speaking forum of Grenoble Thu, 09 Feb 2012 22:01:08 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.1 By: Nicolehttp://www.grenoblelife.com/my-fruitless-efforts-to-change-national-education/comment-page-1/#comment-1391 Nicole Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:26:39 +0000 http://www.grenoblelife.com/?p=2579#comment-1391 Mr West, I am a product of the International School (the old one, Stendhal) and I sympathize with everything you just wrote. I just wanted to say: it was not fruitless. I think I graduated before your time, but I was inspired by collegues of yours with similar 'non-french' approaches to education, and it changed my life. Sometimes you need to see several faces of education to be inspired. I recently quit a good career in the corporate world and am studying my PGCE in an international school much like the one you describe 'dreaming of'. It is without a doubt one of the most inspirational paths I've ever taken. If only the sceptics would bother to tour the world and see the work that is done elsewhere... It was not fruitless. Seeds were sown - they just happen to be growing elsewhere. Mr West,
I am a product of the International School (the old one, Stendhal) and I sympathize with everything you just wrote.
I just wanted to say: it was not fruitless.
I think I graduated before your time, but I was inspired by collegues of yours with similar ‘non-french’ approaches to education, and it changed my life. Sometimes you need to see several faces of education to be inspired.
I recently quit a good career in the corporate world and am studying my PGCE in an international school much like the one you describe ‘dreaming of’. It is without a doubt one of the most inspirational paths I’ve ever taken.

If only the sceptics would bother to tour the world and see the work that is done elsewhere…

It was not fruitless. Seeds were sown – they just happen to be growing elsewhere.

]]> By: James Dalrymplehttp://www.grenoblelife.com/my-fruitless-efforts-to-change-national-education/comment-page-1/#comment-812 James Dalrymple Sun, 05 Sep 2010 12:41:36 +0000 http://www.grenoblelife.com/?p=2579#comment-812 Interesting addition to this debate: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/05/french-schools-pupils-feel-worthless Interesting addition to this debate:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/sep/05/french-schools-pupils-feel-worthless

]]> By: French education: more IS better ... for a while | Grenoble Lifehttp://www.grenoblelife.com/my-fruitless-efforts-to-change-national-education/comment-page-1/#comment-633 French education: more IS better ... for a while | Grenoble Life Tue, 11 May 2010 09:04:48 +0000 http://www.grenoblelife.com/?p=2579#comment-633 [...] response to criticism of the education system on Grenoble Life and from the Anglophone community in France, Iain Smears mounts a passionate defence of French [...] [...] response to criticism of the education system on Grenoble Life and from the Anglophone community in France, Iain Smears mounts a passionate defence of French [...]

]]> By: Suzanne Bonnefondhttp://www.grenoblelife.com/my-fruitless-efforts-to-change-national-education/comment-page-1/#comment-555 Suzanne Bonnefond Mon, 22 Mar 2010 17:14:43 +0000 http://www.grenoblelife.com/?p=2579#comment-555 All the people who tried to fight the mammoth failed ;.. (the Mammoth was the name given to the Education Nationale by former Minister Claude Allègre !! )and grèves and demonstrations followed ... thank you Gregg for having tried .. All the people who tried to fight the
mammoth failed ;.. (the Mammoth was the name given to the Education Nationale by former Minister Claude Allègre !! )and grèves and demonstrations followed … thank you Gregg for having tried ..

]]> By: Debra Mervanthttp://www.grenoblelife.com/my-fruitless-efforts-to-change-national-education/comment-page-1/#comment-546 Debra Mervant Tue, 16 Mar 2010 19:30:42 +0000 http://www.grenoblelife.com/?p=2579#comment-546 Great article, Gregg. As an American expat who has lived here for many years, has been through the French university system, and has two kids who have gone through the French school system, I agree with everything you say here, and that is unusual for me... I would like to add : the frustrating feeling that the "system" and I, parent, were competing all the way through for the legitimacy of educating my children. That I noticed that starting right out of maternelle, the insidious weeding out selection process at work in France ensured that many many teachers felt it was their duty to adopt a punitive approach to education rather than an encouraging, nuturing one. One can have one's doubts about the ability of ANY mass education system (private OR public...) to EDUCATE a human being. And I DO have those doubts these days. Our society's greatest minds were fostered by a mentor relationship, NOT by mass education. That said, I think that you have been, and continue to be, an inspiration to your students, and will stand out in their minds as a teacher who MADE A DIFFERENCE during their school years. And.. in a mass education system, what MORE can you hope for ? Great article, Gregg. As an American expat who has lived here for many years, has been through the French university system, and has two kids who have gone through the French school system, I agree with everything you say here, and that is unusual for me…
I would like to add : the frustrating feeling that the “system” and I, parent, were competing all the way through for the legitimacy of educating my children. That I noticed that starting right out of maternelle, the insidious weeding out selection process at work in France ensured that many many teachers felt it was their duty to adopt a punitive approach to education rather than an encouraging, nuturing one.
One can have one’s doubts about the ability of ANY mass education system (private OR public…) to EDUCATE a human being. And I DO have those doubts these days.
Our society’s greatest minds were fostered by a mentor relationship, NOT by mass education.
That said, I think that you have been, and continue to be, an inspiration to your students, and will stand out in their minds as a teacher who MADE A DIFFERENCE during their school years.
And.. in a mass education system, what MORE can you hope for ?

]]> By: Anna Cartaladehttp://www.grenoblelife.com/my-fruitless-efforts-to-change-national-education/comment-page-1/#comment-545 Anna Cartalade Mon, 15 Mar 2010 09:18:37 +0000 http://www.grenoblelife.com/?p=2579#comment-545 An interesting article Gregg. I'd just like to say that the activities you provide for the kids in CSI are a wonderful thing and I'm sure they have touched and improved many student's lives over the the years. What's more some of those young people will go out into the world with an experience tucked away inside them that will continue to affect them and others through their interactions and their decisions. My daughter who is in 6eme hasn't yet taken advantage of the Music Club and Pantomime, etc., but I am really glad those things are there for her. I think that even one or two moments in school that show your strengths and your value as a human being can bring about big changes on a personal level. I can remember a few key moments in secondary school supplied by specific teachers, who were a bit different from the rest, that probably taught me more than all the other teachers and years at school put together. Changing systems on a large scale isn't always possible, but every individual has choices about the way they interact with others and I think every teacher has a great ability to do good, if they choose to, even within a system that has it's faults. Keep up the good work. An interesting article Gregg. I’d just like to say that the activities you provide for the kids in CSI are a wonderful thing and I’m sure they have touched and improved many student’s lives over the the years. What’s more some of those young people will go out into the world with an experience tucked away inside them that will continue to affect them and others through their interactions and their decisions.
My daughter who is in 6eme hasn’t yet taken advantage of the Music Club and Pantomime, etc., but I am really glad those things are there for her.
I think that even one or two moments in school that show your strengths and your value as a human being can bring about big changes on a personal level. I can remember a few key moments in secondary school supplied by specific teachers, who were a bit different from the rest, that probably taught me more than all the other teachers and years at school put together.
Changing systems on a large scale isn’t always possible, but every individual has choices about the way they interact with others and I think every teacher has a great ability to do good, if they choose to, even within a system that has it’s faults. Keep up the good work.

]]> By: Christina Rebuffet-Broadushttp://www.grenoblelife.com/my-fruitless-efforts-to-change-national-education/comment-page-1/#comment-529 Christina Rebuffet-Broadus Sun, 07 Mar 2010 18:56:02 +0000 http://www.grenoblelife.com/?p=2579#comment-529 France's education system still bends under the burden of its history. Centuries ago, rhetoric, debate, and reasoning were prime skills needed to climb the social ladder that was built in salons and at fancy dinner parties (this was a time when education wasn't a mass product, remember). Remnants of this approach still haunt French education ("il faut construire un plan d'argument," "pensez à inclure une thèse, une synthèse et une antithèse"). In my personal case, I have to train my students to concoct the sacrosaint dissertation based on a savant text, in English, and this is how they are supposed to learn a new language. Given the global level of the classes, it's like asking an 8 year old to argue about the death penalty or the dangers of television in today's society. I would much rather be teaching them how to make a phone call, book a hotel, or complain that their rental car has a scratch but I guess such real world skills are beneath the public education system. Now, let me count the number of times I personally have ever had to give a written account of a Newsweek article since I left school...oh, when I make corrections for my exams as an English teacher in the French school system. France’s education system still bends under the burden of its history. Centuries ago, rhetoric, debate, and reasoning were prime skills needed to climb the social ladder that was built in salons and at fancy dinner parties (this was a time when education wasn’t a mass product, remember). Remnants of this approach still haunt French education (“il faut construire un plan d’argument,” “pensez à inclure une thèse, une synthèse et une antithèse”).

In my personal case, I have to train my students to concoct the sacrosaint dissertation based on a savant text, in English, and this is how they are supposed to learn a new language. Given the global level of the classes, it’s like asking an 8 year old to argue about the death penalty or the dangers of television in today’s society.

I would much rather be teaching them how to make a phone call, book a hotel, or complain that their rental car has a scratch but I guess such real world skills are beneath the public education system. Now, let me count the number of times I personally have ever had to give a written account of a Newsweek article since I left school…oh, when I make corrections for my exams as an English teacher in the French school system.

]]> By: Gerry Mac Donaghhttp://www.grenoblelife.com/my-fruitless-efforts-to-change-national-education/comment-page-1/#comment-528 Gerry Mac Donagh Sun, 07 Mar 2010 15:57:02 +0000 http://www.grenoblelife.com/?p=2579#comment-528 I agree with James on the narrow view of what constitutes knowledge and the over emphasis on technical qualifications.Okey we all want an inclusive intuitive approach but sadly this does not reflect the reality of our increasingly technocratic societys? France sticks to a perhaps overly cerebral approach and a rejection (so FAR) OF THE positive affirmative idea beloved of the US public system and the anglo saxon model.I am not surprised that many french do not complain of the Lack of positive reinforcement ideas in French education,as they see in it a lowering of standards in deference to a politically correct communitarist american anglo saxon model. I agree with James on the narrow view of what constitutes knowledge and the over emphasis on technical qualifications.Okey we all want an inclusive intuitive approach but sadly this does not reflect the reality of our increasingly technocratic societys? France sticks to a perhaps overly cerebral approach and a rejection (so FAR) OF THE positive affirmative idea beloved of the US public system and the anglo saxon model.I am not surprised that many french do not complain of the Lack of positive reinforcement ideas in French education,as they see in it a lowering of standards in deference to a politically correct communitarist american anglo saxon model.

]]> By: James Dalrymplehttp://www.grenoblelife.com/my-fruitless-efforts-to-change-national-education/comment-page-1/#comment-523 James Dalrymple Fri, 05 Mar 2010 14:13:38 +0000 http://www.grenoblelife.com/?p=2579#comment-523 I agree with Gerry that it’s admirable France retains high standards where other educational systems have been criticised for dumbing down. However, I think we can all agree that high standards and more pedagogical methods needn’t be mutually exclusive. I don’t have children of school age so I can’t speak from experience but it’s a common complaint among Anglophones that French schooling can be too black and white, with an emphasis on learning by rote and lacking in free debate or ‘positive reinforcement’ (not an expression I particularly like). Admittedly this is not complaint I have heard much from French people themselves so I’m keeping an open mind until my daughter reaches school age. Concerning elites, however, I do find the job market stiflingly over-insistent on technical qualifications. The positive side is that France has a highly trained/skilled workforce. The down side is that there seems to be official ‘right’ ways to do jobs, and that this way can be acquired in the classroom (and proven through examinations), rather than through experience. This does not strike me as an imaginative working environment, but oppressively technocratic. Is this symptomatic of a school system that is instructive rather than intuitive? Or a wider cultural belief about learning & knowledge in general? Incidentally my wife went to the international school and had Gregg as a teacher (some years ago now) and she has mostly positive memories of her time there. I agree with Gerry that it’s admirable France retains high standards where other educational systems have been criticised for dumbing down. However, I think we can all agree that high standards and more pedagogical methods needn’t be mutually exclusive.

I don’t have children of school age so I can’t speak from experience but it’s a common complaint among Anglophones that French schooling can be too black and white, with an emphasis on learning by rote and lacking in free debate or ‘positive reinforcement’ (not an expression I particularly like).

Admittedly this is not complaint I have heard much from French people themselves so I’m keeping an open mind until my daughter reaches school age.

Concerning elites, however, I do find the job market stiflingly over-insistent on technical qualifications. The positive side is that France has a highly trained/skilled workforce. The down side is that there seems to be official ‘right’ ways to do jobs, and that this way can be acquired in the classroom (and proven through examinations), rather than through experience. This does not strike me as an imaginative working environment, but oppressively technocratic. Is this symptomatic of a school system that is instructive rather than intuitive? Or a wider cultural belief about learning & knowledge in general?

Incidentally my wife went to the international school and had Gregg as a teacher (some years ago now) and she has mostly positive memories of her time there.

]]> By: Gerry Mac Donaghhttp://www.grenoblelife.com/my-fruitless-efforts-to-change-national-education/comment-page-1/#comment-520 Gerry Mac Donagh Thu, 04 Mar 2010 21:36:37 +0000 http://www.grenoblelife.com/?p=2579#comment-520 Multiple choice tests,more basic keyboard skills,less history less languages,less science '(except for those who will be coached to be the new elite of course)An easier BAC(teachers advised to revise the average higher in last years BAC I kid you not!)Less teachers,less qualified assistants,more bullshit such as teachers not qualified in a subject being roped in to give extra hours of help to weak kids in that SUBJECT!!!!!Its happening believe it or not.Greggs ideas are okey in their own way I suppose but miss the point,Sarko wants an elite and would love a special school system where poor kids learn little of history and culture but plenty about law and order and the correct way to drive a car! Its right up his street as long as he doesnt have to pay for it of course or employ any car mecanics or teachers of Bio Cuisine to wok there.Lastly if the French boast about their cuisine,unlike the yanks they have something to boast about? Multiple choice tests,more basic keyboard skills,less history less languages,less science ‘(except for those who will be coached to be the new elite of course)An easier BAC(teachers advised to revise the average higher in last years BAC I kid you not!)Less teachers,less qualified assistants,more bullshit such as teachers not qualified in a subject being roped in to give extra hours of help to weak kids in that SUBJECT!!!!!Its happening believe it or not.Greggs ideas are okey in their own way I suppose but miss the point,Sarko wants an elite and would love a special school system where poor kids learn little of history and culture but plenty about law and order and the correct way to drive a car! Its right up his street as long as he doesnt have to pay for it of course or employ any car mecanics or teachers of Bio Cuisine to wok there.Lastly if the French boast about their cuisine,unlike the yanks they have something to boast about?

]]> By: Gerry Mac Donaghhttp://www.grenoblelife.com/my-fruitless-efforts-to-change-national-education/comment-page-1/#comment-519 Gerry Mac Donagh Thu, 04 Mar 2010 21:18:34 +0000 http://www.grenoblelife.com/?p=2579#comment-519 Nice idealism Gregg,Nice to see an american talk about the French system after the disaster which currently resides in the heart of the American public school system.Nice sentiments about teachers getting involved in students and their personal development,but whos going to recruit them and whos gonna pay them,? not Sarko who year after year cuts back on the number of teachers hired and forces those already working into worse conditions,with less back ups and funding!year after year!The system is structurally elitist but at least it resists the dumbing down and grade inflation route which is of course based on the bottom line of making test systems easier for more to pass! as is the case in The States and UK Yes the system has an elitist tendancy but guess what? Sarko wants more Elites, trained in Science for the hi tech labs and industry and less rounded humanities based individuals (see latest cuts to hist geo classes)The French nation is presided by a man with no culture, who doesnt read ,who doesnt think and who loves America and wants France to adopt the Public school system of the states,a total disaster Nice idealism Gregg,Nice to see an american talk about the French system after the disaster which currently resides in the heart of the American public school system.Nice sentiments about teachers getting involved in students and their personal development,but whos going to recruit them and whos gonna pay them,? not Sarko who year after year cuts back on the number of teachers hired and forces those already working into worse conditions,with less back ups and funding!year after year!The system is structurally elitist but at least it resists the dumbing down and grade inflation route which is of course based on the bottom line of making test systems easier for more to pass! as is the case in The States and UK Yes the system has an elitist tendancy but guess what? Sarko wants more Elites, trained in Science for the hi tech labs and industry and less rounded humanities based individuals (see latest cuts to hist geo classes)The French nation is presided by a man with no culture, who doesnt read ,who doesnt think and who loves America and wants France to adopt the Public school system of the states,a total disaster

]]> By: Trudi Penklerhttp://www.grenoblelife.com/my-fruitless-efforts-to-change-national-education/comment-page-1/#comment-517 Trudi Penkler Thu, 04 Mar 2010 10:51:43 +0000 http://www.grenoblelife.com/?p=2579#comment-517 Oh thank you for this Gregg... for saying it from within the 'system' and saying it so well! Wow! As a counsellor, therapist and intercultural consultant trying to help the dynamically goal-directed as well as the disoriented, disappointed and sometimes downright damaged, find positive and constructive ways forward, I find this incisive insight into what should surely be the strongest pillar of a society's building plan - its educative context - to be no simple 'critique'. It is a comprehensive expression of the uncomfortable baseline so many of us work from, while keeping on doing what we can... Trudi Penkler (Psychologist, Psychotherapist and Intercultural Consultant based in Grenoble) Oh thank you for this Gregg… for saying it from within the ‘system’ and saying it so well! Wow!

As a counsellor, therapist and intercultural consultant trying to help the dynamically goal-directed as well as the disoriented, disappointed and sometimes downright damaged, find positive and constructive ways forward, I find this incisive insight into what should surely be the strongest pillar of a society’s building plan – its educative context – to be no simple ‘critique’. It is a comprehensive expression of the uncomfortable baseline so many of us work from, while keeping on doing what we can…

Trudi Penkler
(Psychologist, Psychotherapist and Intercultural Consultant based in Grenoble)

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